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This Paper, a Study of Romans Chapter 7, Is directed to Those Irrationally Accepting the Egregious – “Lie” – That the Apostle Paul, a Torah Scholar, Taught the Law of God Was Nailed to the Stake and Thus Was Abolished

Friday, January 12, 2018 15:43
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This paper, a study of Romans chapter 7, is directed to those irrationally accepting the egregious – “Lie” – that the Apostle Paul, a Torah scholar, taught the Law of God was nailed to the stake and thus was abolished.

For years articles and paper have been posted here on BIN —proving from the pages of God’s Word — the Holy Perfect Righteous Law of God has never and can NEVER be abolished.

Yet no one, even half heartedly, has attempted to refute that FACT with scriptures and logic but they have given us their opinions. I do not order my life by the opinions of any man.

You ministers, you preachers – whom ever – can you prove the Torah and the 10 Commandment were removed by Jesus Christ other then by the easy to twist writings of Paul ?  Can you do so using the words of Jesus Christ but without bring up the word “fulfilled” as that word by no means infers the law was ‘ended” or terminated or abolished?

We will study Romans chapter 7 line by line and word by word.

According to the Apostle Peter, the Apostle Paul’s letters are difficult to understand and many that – are – “unlearned” and are – “unstable” – twist Paul’s words to their own demise.

Can the 40,000 flavors of so called Christianity be labeled as unlearned? A better term could be — deceived.

Comments will be made under each scripture pointing out key words, basic facts and facts confirmed by other scriptures and logic. Other translations will be employed to substantiate intent — as Paul is hard to understand.

If any can find mentioned in chapter 7 that the Law i.e. the Torah, which Paul is clearly teaching, has been abolished — please point it out.

Please attempt to explain for us; if the Law were abolished by the death of Christ — why then is Paul teaching it to gentile converts decades later?

Romans 7

1 Know ye not, brethren,(for I speak to them that know (#1097 to come to know) the law, )– how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul states as a Fact – the Law has dominion i.e. (“rule” #2961) over men —- as long as they are alive.

“Brethren”; Paul is directing this letter to “brethren i.e. to the converted body of Christ in Rome thus to gentiles that were not taught the Law i.e. The Torah from birth.

Paul is directing this letter to gentiles – to those gentiles that have “come to know” #1097 the Torah. In Paul’s day the Torah, which was given through Moses, was The Book of the Law even as it is today.

The word “Law”, which Paul used – must — refer to the Torah— as the 10 Commandments do not specifically address God’s marriage law.

God’s marriage Law is found in God’s Torah which was spoken to Moses on the mountain. This fact is confirmed by verse 2.

2 For the woman which hath an husbandis” bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

Paul is explaining Torah marriage Law: Deuteronomy 22: 13 – 30; Deuteronomy 24: 1 – 5 and Leviticus 18: 1 – 30

Paul explains to the converted brethren at Rome the Torah instruction which states the wife is free to remarry after the death of the husband.

Until the husband dies the wife is bound by Torah Law to her husband.

3 So thenif,while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man,she — “shall be’ — called an adulteress: —- butifher husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Is this not clear? If a wife leaves her husband and marries another, the wife is guilty of adultery. Paul states as fact: she — “shall be’ — called an adulteress:

And – is this not exactly what our Savior also taught His disciples?

Matthew 5:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 ButIsay unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after herhath — committed adultery with her already in hisheart” (mind/nature).

Christ is teaching if one “lusts” for a woman — only in ones mind — Jesus Christ states that act of lust, just in the mind, is legally considered to be adultery. Jesus Christ expanded the Torah law to include the spiritual and not just the physical act.

Not just physical intercourse but the desire to have physical intercourse simply in ones mind — is a SIN — so states your Savior.

The 7th Commandment is found in the Torah in Exodus 20: 14 and Jesus Christ confirms Adultery is still sin, still one of the Commandments and now not only physically adultery but spiritually adultery.

Why is it those that hate God’s Law can not grasps the fact Lusting after a woman only in ones mind and you have now transgressed the law. When Christ came He “raised the bar’ of sin from the physical level up to the spiritual level, Christ magnified the Law and made it greater..

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If Jesus knew the Law would be abolished at His death — why did He emphatically state in verse 32 — the Law of adultery remains the 7th Commandment?

Both Paul and Jesus Christ have confirmed adultery is a sin according to Torah law and Paul is doing so long after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Oh oh! Did Paul forget he had written in other letters that the old Law was nailed to the cross stake?

Paul in verse 3 above is not inferring or stating to the effect—- “this is the way – IT USED to be — before — the death of Jesus Christ!” No! The LAW stands! “she –“shall be”– called an adulteress:”, “shall be” is future tense and this is long after Christ rose from the grave.

Do you still believe the Torah, the Law was abolished? Then why are both Christ and Paul still teaching Torah Law?

  1. is teaching the Roman Brethren the Torah marriage law. Why?

Paul is teaching the Torah marriage law which confirms when Jesus Christ returns as the bridegroom the converted Romans as members of the Body of Christ i.e. the bride can be legally married to Jesus Christ.

Also please understand Jesus Christ during His 33 ½ years on earth was already married thus until He died He would not be released from Torah Law to be married to His bride i.e. the Church.

Jesus Christ was married to the House of Judah, See Jeremiah 31: 32. Christ divorced the House of Israel but remained married to the House of Judah until His death on the stake.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, (was not Christ raised from death?) that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Paul is stating; Brethren – you have become, in effect, dead according to Torah Law because Christ died instead of you — for your sins and you joined Him by baptism into His death, burial and resurrection and thus you are legally dead and now eligible to marry another — even HIM who is raised from the dead i.e. Jesus Christ.

Paul is NOT stating the Law is dead – but that the Torah has jurisdiction in the matter of the coming Marriage of the Lamb and as per Torah Law the Saints of God are accounted as having died and thus able to legally remarry.

Again, the question remains— If that law was abolished why is Paul teaching it to gentiles?

Paul is confirming as fact the Law was never nailed to the stake – why else would Paul bother to teach gentiles —– Torah LAW — and use Torah Law to prove to gentiles they are legally eligible to marry another –even HIM?

Have you ever heard any minister even infer the Torah was involved with the marriage of the returning Bridegroom? Well now you have as the Apostle Paul confirms the fact the future marriage of Jesus Christ must be and will be Torah legal..

5 For when we werein the flesh” (unconverted), the motions (passion) of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Before we were converted i.e. ‘in the flesh” and without the Spirit, — the “temptations” of sin, as enumerated by the 10 Commandments, working in our fleshly unconverted bodies — brought forth Sin and according to Torah Law those that sin— will be put to death.

Paul is stating above in verse 5 –transgressing the Law brings the penalty of death: the Law has authority over us as it was never nailed to the stake.

Paul is not stating—the Torah in the past – before the death of Jesus – brought forth death –but now going forward! Are we all not in an unconverted condition before God the Father called us?

To confirm translators understand verse 5 in the same way.

NIV 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

NLT 5 When we were controlled by our old nature,b sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.

6 Butnowwe are delivered from the law,that being deadwherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

That being dead”? Was Paul dead; were those he was writing to dead? No! not at, all but as they had joined in the death of Jesus Christ by being baptized, buried in that watery grave with Christ, they were accounted as having died.

And Who delivered us from the “penalty” of the Law i.e. death: it is by the death of Jesus Christ, our Passover, we are delivered, redeemed from the penalty of death for our sins.

The Word states; it was determined before creation Christ must die for our sins. Jesus Christ did not die —- to abolish the Law, — Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty of death for each of us.

Jesus Christ was legally bled to death according to Torah Law as payment in full for our sins. His death was “according to Law” and not to abolish that ‘Just’ Law.

Jesus Christ was “Justly” put to death, not unjustly, once our sin became His sin – He was slain according to Torah Law as payment for sin.

Jesus Christ lived and died according to Torah Law as our example to follow – and the 40,000 flavors of so called Christianity hate that fact.

If you do not agree with the above then show us the scripture in the Old Testament confirming by Torah Law if the Son of God is slain the law is, by or through some process of the Law, abolished.

Our God is the LAW giver — if any Law is to be revoked there must be a legal process within that Law allowing for its revocation. Produce that legal process, Bring forth that scripture!

As an example the Sacrificial law which was added because of sin was legally terminated by the death of our Passover Jesus Christ. See Daniel 9: 27 to verify the fact the Sacrificial law was ended at the death of Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifice was our schoolmaster that taught us only by the shedding of blood can we be redeemed from sin.

The Law is not and was never removed or abolished but the debt i.e. the penalty of the Law for transgressing that Law has been paid in full by our Passover.

We were ‘held’ under the penalty of death until we joined Christ, symbolically, in His death.

And now as we have the Father’s Spirit that raised Jesus from death dwelling in our bodies we must live by the spiritual law and not the physical law only.

The 10 Commandments were “filled to the full” by Jesus Christ as in the first covenant they were only physical law , Christ added in the spiritual law thus what one does in ones mind is now sin.

See Matthew 5

7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin?God forbid.Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

How this statement of Paul’s can be misconstrued is beyond my understanding.

Is it a sin to obey God’s Law? —“” NO! God forbid! “””

Then Paul explains the Fact if the Torah did not state clearly that Lust was a sin – “I”, – Paul, would never have known coveting/lust was a sin.

Sin is sin only if what is considered to be sin is codified.

Paul is clearly stating as a fact; to lust, to covet was in Paul’s day still sin.

Paul has once more confirmed the Law was not nailed to the stake.

Paul’s letter to the Colossians is the cause of much confusion. Study it closely and show us where it states the Torah including the 10 commandments was nailed to the stake. And read other translations none will state it was the Holy law, The Book of the Law, that was nailed.

I am including the NIV translation to demonstrate others understand verse 7 in the same way as do I.

NIV 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was — had it not been for the law.

For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.

This is a point made many many times on BIN over the years — without the codification of what IS a sin – there can not be any such thing as — sin!

NO one to date has even commented on the above point of logic — why —because there is no way to twist it?

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

First, Understand Paul is equating sin with the LAW. 1 John3: 4. Paul is stating as fact: “Sin is the transgression of the LAW!”

If there were no law against the lust of the flesh then the sin, “lusting”, would not, could not bring upon me the penalty of death.

The way Paul expresses his points, compared to today, does make one slow down and balance what Paul’s point is against the rest of God’s Word. That is why Peter said Paul is hard to understand even in Peter’s day and I believe God allowed this on purpose just as Christ spoke in parable — so folks could not understand. Also see Isaiah 28: 13

NLT 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power.

Point Paul just made: if there were no commandment stating “lust” is sin then there is no condemnation of death for lust.

To be clear, it is carnal human nature that covets and lust it is not the law that “makes” one sin, the Law is the Light that illuminates sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

I can apply this in my own life —-Before I personally knew there was a Law against lusting I was living without the knowledge of the penalty of death, but when the understanding of the commandment came — I understood I am a sinner — and the Law put me ‘under’ the penalty of death.

BUT Jesus Christ removed my debt of death and I am now no longer “under the Law” i.e. “under the penalty of death” prescribed by Law.

NLT 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

The Commandments are THE WAY to life – but – I found because I am carnal — the Law caused my death.

Can you understand Paul in Romans 7 is teaching the Torah and the 10 Commandments to the converted gentile Saints in Rome?

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

NIV 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death

Without the 7th Commandment or any of the other 9, Paul would not need the shed blood of Jesus Christ – can you not grasp the fact if there were no Law then repentance from transgressing the Law is not possible and none would require the sacrifice of our Savior for our sins.

12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Paul is stating the LAW is not a burden, is not a curse, is not a mistake requiring it be abolished— but it “IS” HOLY, JUST and GOOD and it justly put Paul under the sentence of death.

Please — in verse 12 — spoken by Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ — is Paul telling us the Law is awful and he is glad it is gone?? God forbid, Paul is exclaiming the Law is HOLY.

Why does 99.9% of what is called Christianity demand what God had made HOLY, Just and Good be revoked? And Paul confirmed it is HOLY.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

NIV 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? — By no means! – Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Paul is stating again— the Law is Good and it is Just and without the Law how would or could we know what is SIN?

Note: All translations are the work of unconverted men and the KJV is considered by some to be better then most – but- that does not mean every Word as it is translated in the KJV is OF God.

Thus we use other translations to clear up difficult wording and also Strong’s for fuller definitions of words.

14 For we know that the lawisspiritual: but I am carnal,sold under sin.

Jesus Christ filled the Law to the full, it is now a spiritual Law as well as a physical law.

Do not make the error of “spiritualizing” the Law away: understand, Jesus Christ, by expanding the Law to spiritual actually made it impossible for the unconverted to obey. See Matthew 5.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

NIV 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do —I do not do, —but what I hate I do.

The pull of carnal human nature is working against us, even when we want to do good some times we do what we hate and know is sin.

If you do not agree with the other translations or the writers understanding of Romans 7 then reveal to us what you perceive Paul to be teaching.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I ‘consentunto the law that [it is] good.

Here, once again, Paul confirms the Law is Good, Holy and Just.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

It is not me knowingly, willfully sinning but because I am still in the flesh the temptation of sin still causes me to stumble.

If you have been taught it is impossible for you to sin because you are “born again” – think again? Paul is clearly stating he still sins even though he does not want too. Are you more “converted’ then the Apostle Paul?

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh, ) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Paul is making the point, I am still flesh and blood and as so my carnal human nature is still a problem as it pulls me into temptation even when I want to do good. What? Paul was not “born again” and can never sin again like you?

Nope, Paul was not born again and neither are you. The 2nd birth takes place at the First Resurrection when we are born into the spirit Family of God as Sons of God.

Paul is teaching a hard point for some to grasp, because we are all in our flesh and blood bodies until the first resurrection and all have the same human nature we all inherited from our father Adam —- we can not of our own will and power keep from sinning.

It is only by the power of the indwelling of our Father’s Spirit that sin can be over come and that is a life long process that is called conversion. Our carnal nature is being converted into the Holy Divine nature of God the Father.

If the Father’s Spirit did not dwell in Paul then Paul would have nothing good within his body of flesh.

19 For the good that I wouldI do not: but the evil which I would not,that I do.

This requires no comment.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul is stating again his carnal human nature is the cause of his sin.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

That law is carnal human nature, that carnal nature we all inherited from Adam – causes all – even — converted Saints of God, even when we want to do good to sometimes do evil i.e. sin.

Paul again blows away the false belief the converted spirit filled can no longer sin.

22 For I delight in the “law of God after the inward man:

As the Spirit of the Father dwells in Paul, that Holy Spirit leads Paul to spiritual delight in the Law, the Whole Law, the Torah.

Please, you that still want the Law to be abolished, answer this question; Why would Paul delight in something he supposedly taught was nailed to the stake??

What other Law was there in Paul’s day and time? What Law was Paul a scholar of? Was Paul not a student of Gamaliel the top Torah scholar of his day?

Jeremiah 31: 33 states God is putting in our hearts i.e. our nature HIS Torah thus it is by the indwelling of that Spirit that Paul can delight in God’s Torah.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

As Paul was and as each of us are yet in our bodies of flesh — the pull of the flesh caused by our carnal human nature, wars against what God has put in the minds of His Holy Ones, His Spirit and His Torah.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Who will deliver “Me”, “Paul’, from this body of flesh that is so easily pulled this way and that by the temptation of sin?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Only Jesus Christ can “deliver” us from this body of death and HE has.

Paul’s mind, filled with that ONE Spirit implanting the Torah as Paul’s nature, earnestly desires to serve God “lawfully” but the law of carnal human nature yet pulls Paul and all God’s Saints towards sin.

We conclude the study of Romans 7 with one scripture from Acts.

Acts 21: 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing;but [that] thou thyselfalsowalkest orderly, —- and keepest the law.

“You — also” – you, Paul, as well as — “us”– here in Jerusalem – we all do walk orderly and Keep the Torah!

The 12 apostles here confirm they walk i.e. live in the orderly manner set forth by the Torah. They obey God’s Holy Law.

The Apostles wanted to prove what was being said about Paul — that he taught the Law was abolished and no longer needed to be obeyed — was nothing but a lie.

What Paul took part in and what the other Apostles suggested Paul participate in can be found in the Torah instructions concerning vows:

Some Torah instructions concerning vows are found in Number 6: 2; 15: 8; 21: 2; 30: 2, 3 and Leviticus 27: 2

Romans 7: 25 “So then with the mind — “I myself” - serve the law of God;

Paul is stating as “fact” – ‘I myself serve the LAW of God”:

Paul taught, kept, lived by and obeyed the Holy Torah of God.

Even in spite of the conformation given by Acts 21: 24 and by Paul in verse 25 above and the whole chapter of Romans 7 — If you believe Paul is not writing about the Torah but a different law then show us where that different law is written.

Paul is a teacher and a keeper of Torah law as was Jesus Christ and the 12 of the Apostles.

If you can not grasp this fact — know for certain— you have been deceived.

I anxiously await an “honest” attempt to refute the above and if you can not do so yourself then take this to an “expert”, a preacher a minister and have them disprove it point by point.

 

 

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Total 77 comments
  • Truthseeker

    Rather then attacking me and rather then giving us your opinions or using twisted statements of Paul — why not take it your minister or to whom ever and have them show us where they think this study falls short and prove so by scripture and logic .

    • Alan Schuetz

      For those wanting to study the Koine Greek for this passage, see http://biblehub.com/text/romans/7-1.htm.

      On Judgment Day (on a future Yom Kippur), true believers in Christ will receive Grace — that is, a judicial pardon/clemency. All others will be judged by Torah, found guilty, and will be thrown into the lake of fire called Gehenna for eternal torment.

      #WakeUp

      • Mayhem

        Eternal torment is reserved for three and the torment of those across from Abraham ends with resurrection while the final judgement and ultimate punishment will be mercifully quick whereby the indwelling spirit returns to source.

        Churches teach eternal torment to scare tithes, subservience and misplaced worship out of the huddled masses.

        Baaaaa, woof :idea:

        • Alan Schuetz

          Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (NASB)

          Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

          34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

          41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NASB)

          #DontBeAGoat

          • Mayhem

            Thank you for posting the relevant passages, laschuetz, and can we agree that it is the flame that is practically eternal (Matt 25:41) or would you argue that smoke is still rising above Sodom and Gomorrah given the same Greek word rendered “eternal” is used to describe that event? Sufficient punishment, my friend, because the wages of sin is death not torture.

            Can we also agree there can be no contradictions in canon scripture and then consider the effect a doctrine of eternal punishment has, for but one example, upon John 5:24 which clearly says “out of death into life” not eternal punishment. How would you suggest this obvious contradiction be dealt with?

            And when you’re through with that, laschuetz, there are more…

            http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

            … many more.

            Philosophically how is one to square away a god who could torture his very creation for all time?

            #Don’tBeAWolfInSheep’sClothing :idea:

          • Alan Schuetz

            aiónios – http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

            http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/25-41.htm
            http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/25-46.htm

            The spirit within us is righteous or wicked, but it is eternal in the true sense of the word.

            Paul proclaimed before Governor Felix:

            Acts 24:14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; 15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men. (NASB)

            Again, those who are wicked (i.e., are not true believers in Christ) will be judged by Torah, found guilty, and will be thrown into the lake of fire called Gehenna for ETERNAL torment. Be gone, Belial!

          • Mayhem

            1) – You have failed to address the obvious contradiction your dogma forces upon, for example, John 5:24.

            2) – Given Sodom & Gomorrah is an example of the punishing eternal fire (Jude 1:7) how come it isn’t still burning?

            3) – The punishment is the second death (Rev 21:8) not eternal torture.

            4) – You don’t hear the word and your god is a monster.

          • Mayhem

            http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

            age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

      • Truthseeker

        laschuetz

        Here is what I have proven for my self over many decades of study and prayer and not by reading 14 other men’s opinions, only the Word.

        The 7th and last Holy Feast of each year is the 8th Day or the Last Great Day. This Feast is the 8th day of the Feast of Tabernacles.

        This Holy Feast day represents the time of the 2nd resurrection, the resurrection to judgment, as shown in Ezekiel 37, all never having had their one opportunity for eternal live are resurrected to physical life and JUDGED over a 100 year life time.

        The First Resurrection being the resurrection to Life, 3 is God’s number of completion and finality.

        What do you suppose happens to the aborted? Or the little kids murdered by war or some moron? Or that die of a disease? What happens to all the Chinese that have lived and died over the last 4000 years of that nation’s existence?

        All get that one opportunity for life.

        And all must, as adults, hear the Word and repent from transgressing the Torah and be baptized and by the laying on of hands receiver the Spirit of the Father and over their life time produce the fruit of the spirit.

        All must be “converted” before they enter God’s Family and Government.

        At the end of the Last Great day is the 3rd and final resurrection and this final resurrection is the Resurrection to Condemnation. This is the time all those that have refuse to allow Jesus Christ to rule over them are cast into the Lake of Fire and cease to exist for ever.

        “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”

        • Alan Schuetz

          I presented the Word to you, and you present the precepts of men (manufactured theology) back to me. If you truly understood Sukkot, then you would know with great certainty that this is referencing the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Likewise, if you truly understood Yom Kippur, then you would know, again with great certainty, that it is referencing Judgment Day.

          Now, let’s examine Ezekiel 37 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+37&version=NASB)… You give lip service to the Word. Where does it state this “100 year” business? In fact, it doesn’t; you are deceiving yourself!

          You also fail to understand the notion of the covering regarding those who die before reaching adulthood. You also fail to understand that a believing spouse provides covering for an unbelieving one — even a wife for her husband!

          Regarding all the people who never heard of the Gospel, did not Abram believe? He lived in a house of idol worship in his formative years. Christ will JUDGE THE HEART! The heart serves as the Holy of Holies of the indwelling spirit of our bodily temple or do you not understand the Word?

          Did the Father (Most High) lay hands on Yehoshu’a to anoint Him in the Holy Spirit? No! The Holy Spirit descended in what appeared to be the form of a dove.

          And, converted to what? Some half-baked, pagan denomination that spreads drivel like you are? It really is this simple to receive Grace, a judicial pardon or clemency, on Judgment Day:

          John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (NASB)

          #ComeToTheLight

          Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.” (NASB)

      • Truthseeker

        Laschuetz

        The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the stake by His shed blood has “justified”, has “redeemed” has paid my debt of death for my sin – in my stead — as long as I endure until the end my salvation is sure. No more judgment at the time of the resurrection is required.

        I am being judged now over my life time “right now”, Judgment begins at the Household of God and as all 13 of the Apostles are dead and in their graves awaiting the First Resurrection So will I be at my death.

        All of God’s Saints were or are being judged over their life time — Do you think Moses or Abraham or any of the 13 apostles must yet stand for judgement — why when did Jesus Christ stated as fact: David will rule all 12 tribes and the 12 Apostles will each rule one of the 12 tribes? If this is a fact to Jesus Christ now then why would they need to be judged further?

        You and I do not agree on much— I have stated for years here on BIN of what is called Christianity I am in the 1/2 of 1% and gladly so.

        If you have a problem with what I write — do not read or bother to comment as I will not take no part in your confusion.

  • Alan Schuetz

    In Christ’s own words:

    Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (NASB)

    If all has been fulfilled, then why is there a need for His Second Coming? Has Heaven and Earth passed away? Is Christ a liar? I agree that all “NT churches” are deceived. His Second Coming is all about the mo’edim (appointed times) in the Fall (aka the Days of Awe).

    Here is the calendar from The Way (Heb. HaDerech) as is documented in the Dead Sea Scrolls:

    Calendar: http://www.haderech.info/DSS/Calendar/QumranCalendar.pdf
    Jubilees: http://www.haderech.info/DSS/Calendar/4Q319.pdf
    Course of the Sun: http://www.haderech.info/DSS/1Enoch/1Enoch-Sun.pdf

    “NT churches” don’t have a clue…

  • Alan Schuetz

    The Levitical priesthood was imperfect — NOT Torah! What’s interesting is that the Levitical priesthood was instituted on 18 Abib; it is no coincidence that Yehoshu’a, of the order of Melchizedek (Heb. Malki-tsedeq; =my king is righteous[ness]), was resurrected as Lord of the (Weekly) Sabbath likewise on 18 Abib in 36 CE. See more on the priesthood of Malki-tsedeq in Hebrews 7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+7&version=NASB).

    Yehoshu’a was crucified as the Lamb of God on 14 Abib (Passover) before the ANNUAL Sabbath of the first day of Unleavened Bread. He was dead and buried for THREE DAYS AND NIGHTS per the Jonah prophesy (15-17 Abib), was resurrected on the weekly Sabbath (18 Abib), and His empty tomb was discovered on the first day of the week (19 Abib) JUST AS THE SCRIPTURES STATE! Good Friday is a false tradition, and Easter Sunday is assimilated paganism. The Catholic church purposefully removed all vestiges of our Hebraic roots, and it carried over into Protestantism after the Reformation. We were warned about false traditions (embellishments unsupported by Scripture), precepts of men (manufactured theology), and doctrines of demons (assimilated paganism).

    #WakeUp #QuestionEverything

  • Mayhem

    The crowd is ever hushed by a slam dunk :arrow:

  • Alan Schuetz

    Truthseeker, here’s some problems that you have that I’ve read thus far:

    1. Yehoshu’a (Joshua) was NOT 33-1/2 years old when He died incarnate. He was conceived on the Feast of New Oil in 5 CE EXACTLY six months after Yochanan was conceived and was born incarnate on the Feast of Weeks in 6 CE EXACTLY 38 weeks from His conception during the census of Quirinius (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius). He was crucified on Passover (14 Abib) in 36 CE; therefore, He never made it to His 30th birthday. I can provide explicit evidence from the Book of Luke and the calendar from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    2. The bride of Christ is NOT the “church;” it is New Jerusalem:

    Revelation 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

    The New Jerusalem

    10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (NASB)

    • Alan Schuetz

      Christ’s Birth on the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot) in 6 CE

      False church traditions (unsubstantiated embellishments), the precepts of men (manufactured theology), and doctrines of demons (assimilated paganism) cloud the truth regarding Christ’s conception and birth. For starters, one needs to review the program entitled “Christmas Unwrapped: The History of Christmas” from when The History Channel actually presented history: https://youtu.be/XSQYX-OB1Rs.

      According to this program, Mithraism and Saturnalia were assimilated from pagan Rome; that’s where December 25th falsely originated; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus, and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia.

      Arguably, the most important quote of “Christmas Unwrapped” occurs at the 7:31 mark: “So if you’re gonna sort through the runes of the Scriptures, Jesus was probably born in the Spring. If the shepherds were out in the fields watching their flocks by night, we’re probably not talking about one of the cold spells at the heart of winter.” — Forrest Church, Minister, All Souls Church

      Note: I have no affiliation with this minister or church.

      Many “Biblical scholars” discounted the Lucan account because of the mention of Lysanias, the tetrarch of Abilene, in Luke 3:1. They assumed it was this figure from circa 40-36 BCE; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysanias. That was before the discovery of the Corpus Inscriptionum Graecarum (CIG) 4521; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysanias#Archaeological_Lysanias. Again, the Word of God was vindicated as it repeatedly is via archaeology.

      Furthermore, when the Book of Luke is placed within the context of the calendar from the Dead Sea Scrolls, not only can one know with GREAT CERTAINTY the month, day, day of the week, and year when Joshua* (Heb. Yehoshu’a/Aram. Yeshua/Gr. ‘Iesous) was born incarnate but when John (Yochanan) and He were conceived.

      *Note: “Jesus” incorrectly originates from the transliteration of the Latin; it is NOT the translation. See the second footnote from Matthew 1:1 in Aramaic (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1%3A1&version=NASB). According to the famous Hebrew lexicographer Reuben Alcalay, Yehoshu’a is closely associated with “Let there be…”

      Returning to Christ’s conception and birth… the FACTS unfold as follows, and NO CHURCH currently teaches the truth:

      Fact #1: Elisheba (Elizabeth) was six months pregnant in the sixth month; concentrate on vv26 and 36. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1%3A26-38&version=NASB

      Fact #2: Tsekharya (Zecharias) was a Levite of the order/division of Abijah; concentrate on v5. https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Luke+1%3A5-7&qs_version=NASB

      Fact #3: The mute and shaken Tsekharya returned home immediately after his weekly course was completed, and Elisheba conceived a son. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1%3A8-25&version=NASB

      Fact #4: This is the calendar documented in the Dead Sea Scrolls; see http://www.haderech.info/DSS/Calendar/QumranCalendar.pdf.

      Fact #5: For Elisheba to be six months pregnant in the sixth month, Tsekharya (of the course of Abijah) had to have served in the 12th month. The only time this occurs is from the 14th-20th; see Cycle of Priestly Divisions… > Division Year 3 of 6 in the Qumran calendar above.

      Fact #6: As Tsekharya (and Elisheba) were righteous and walked in ALL requirements and commandments of the Lord (Luke 1:6), he could not have traveled more than a Sabbath day’s journey (2,000 cubits) on the 21st of the 12th month, which was a weekly Sabbath. http://biblehub.com/topical/s/sabbath_day's_journey.htm

      Fact #7: The first day that Tsekharya could have returned home (likely Kiriath Arba — aka Hebron — in the hill country of Judah) was the 22nd of the 12th month on the first day of the week. This was the day that Yochanan (John) was conceived.

      Fact #8: After Miryam’s (Mary’s) visitation from the archangel Gavri’el (Gabriel) in the sixth month (Luke 1:26), she left IN A HURRY to visit Elisheba. At the moment of arrival, Elisheba was overcome by the Holy Spirit and knew that Miryam had conceived a child. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1%3A39-55&version=NASB

      Fact #9: Exactly six months after Yochanan was conceived, Yehoshu’a was conceived. According to the Qumran calendar, that would have occurred on the 22nd of the sixth month on the first day of the week, which is the Feast of New Oil!

      Sidebar: The Feast of New Oil was also the fourth of four agricultural feasts each occurring 49 days apart, exclusive (i.e., barley, wheat, grapes/wine, and olive oil). Olive oil was a component of anointing oil; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+30%3A22-33&version=NASB. Also, the root of “Christos” (http://biblehub.com/greek/5547.htm) is “chrió” meaning “to anoint with olive oil” (http://biblehub.com/greek/5548.htm).

      Fact #10: The gestation period for women is 38 weeks from CONCEPTION (not to be confused with last menstrual period or LMP) to birth; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy. EXACTLY 38 weeks after Miryam conceived, Yeshoshu’a was born on the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot) on the 15th day of the third month on the first day of the week.

      So, now we know the month, day, and day of the week of John’s conception and Christ’s conception and birth. Now, for the years.

      Fact #11: Yehoshu’a was born in 6 CE during the census of Quirinius; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius. For the Scriptural reference, concentrate on v2; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2%3A1-20&version=NASB.

      Sidebar: “Herod” was a dynastic title like Caesar and Pharaoh. The “Herod” at the time of Christ’s birth was Herod Archelaus; he was deposed that same year (after the “slaughter of the innocents” in Bet Lechem) and died in exile in 18 CE; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_Archelaus. When did the “holy family” return from Egypt after Herod [Archelaus] died? When Yehoshu’a was 12 years old (18 CE – 6 CE = 12 years).

      Sidebar: The only verse in the Gospels that contradicts this account is Matthew 2:22. The earliest extant manuscript containing that verse was from Papyrus 70 from the late third century CE (which is “a fairly reliable text, though it was carelessly written”); see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_70. The “early church fathers” were already at work destroying the truth!

      This was what the “wise men of the east” of Jerusalem (Yerushalyim) — 15 miles as the crow flies — in the desert wilderness of Qumran saw on the Feast of Weeks in 6 CE; see http://tinyurl.com/mhbba3l. This was confirmed with our local planetarium in Baton Rouge. The “wandering stars” of Jupiter (representative of the Most High/Father) and Venus (representative of the virgin mother) as well as the conjunction with occultation of Uranus (representative of the Holy Spirit) and Mars (representative of the redemptive Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53) rose in the east in the constellation Pisces (representative of Israel). This “star” sign naturally moved from east to south towards Bethlehem (Bet Lechem) as the evening progressed — just as the Scriptures state.

      On the eighth day after His birth (23rd of the third month), Joshua was circumcised per Torah (=instruction/Law; five Books of Moses). After 40 days (7+33 days) from His birth (25th of the fourth month), the appropriate sacrifices were made for a firstborn son; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2%3A21-24&version=NASB and https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+12&version=NASB. As they were poor and could not afford a lamb, they offered either a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons per Leviticus 12:8 and documented in Luke 2:24. They were poor because the wise men had not visited yet! It was on this day, the 25th of the fourth month when Joshua was presented at the Temple, that the following occurred with Simeon (Shimon) and Anna (Hannah); see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2%3A25-37&version=NASB, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_(Gospel_of_Luke), and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_the_Prophetess.

      Sidebar: The “consolation of Israel” in Luke 2:25 is a reference to Isaiah 40; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+40&version=NASB. Note also the key phrase of Isaiah 40:3: “A voice is calling, ‘Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness…’” This is in reference to Yochanan’s instructing the “sect” called The Way in the desert wilderness of Qumran how to recognize their Messiah from the TaNaKh (OT). Not only was this exact phraseology employed in a handful of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is also documented in ALL the synoptic Gospels concentrating on Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, and John 1:23: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+3%3A1-12%3B+Mark+1%3A1-8%3B+Luke+3%3A1-17%3B+John+1%3A6-28&version=NASB.

      Sidebar: Likewise, the “redemption of Jerusalem” in Luke 2:38 is a reference to Isaiah 52 concentrating on verses 3 and 9; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+52&version=NASB. Verse 6 is regarding the true pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton. Currently, rabbinic Jews recite “Adonai” for the Tetragrammaton invoking the Greek Adonis and Babylonian Tammuz. Christians typically say Jehovah or Yahweh, but the “vav” in yod-he-vav-he is also pronounced like the “o” in Torah, menorah, Eloah (singular form of Elohim), and Yehoshu’a (=Joshua, Christ’s REAL name) to name a few. A DSS fragment has it spelled ‘Iaw in Greek (iota-alpha-omega), which is consistent with Yahoah; see http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/lxxjewpap/4QLevB.jpg. How much more meaning does that give Revelation 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13? See https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1%3A8%2C+21%3A6%2C+22%3A13&version=NASB. “NT-only churches” miss the subtleties of those Hebraic key words and phrases referencing OT passages.

      Picking up on the 26th of the fourth month (the day after Joshua was presented at the Temple), the wise men of the “sect” called The Way (Heb. HaDerech) in Acts and the Dead Sea Scrolls met with Herod Archelaus then visited the family in Bethlehem; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+2%3A1-12&version=NASB. After Joseph’s (Yosef’s) vision on the evening of the 27th, the family departed for Egypt that same night; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+2%3A13-14&version=NASB.

      Sidebar: Note that there was a 12 year gap between Luke 2 verses 38 and 39 when the family was in Egypt (confirmed in v42); see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2%3A38-44&version=NASB. They returned to Nazareth from Egypt after Herod Archelaus died in 18 CE (confirmed in Matthew 2:15); see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+2%3A15&version=NASB. Why was the flight to Egypt not covered in the Lucan account? Because his was based on EYEWITNESS accounts (Luke 1:2), and the family departed under cover of darkness (Matthew 2:14); that is, there were NO WITNESSES! Apparently, Luke did not travel to Egypt to obtain evidence of the family’s residing there; therefore, it was excluded from his account.

      False traditions such as Herod the Great being part of this narrative when he died in 4 BCE and the precepts of men creating the fanciful machinations of the three kings of Melchior, Caspar, and Balthazar HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS! Who doesn’t think that the wise men of The Way in Qumran didn’t have the means to gift Joshua the Messiah (Yehoshu’a HaMashiach) with gold, frankincense, and myrrh after the discovery of the Copper Scroll? See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Scroll.

      In summation:

      * Yochanan was conceived on the 22nd day of the twelfth month on the first day of the week in 4 CE.

      * Yehoshu’a was conceived on the 22nd day of the sixth month on the first day of the week on the Feast of New Oil in 5 CE — exactly six months from Yochanan’s conception.

      * Yehoshu’a was born during the census of Quirinius on the 15th day of the third month on the first day of the week on the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot) in 6 CE — exactly 38 weeks from His conception.

      Sidebar: This is when the “sect” called The Way (HaDerech) in Acts and the DSS made new covenants. Christ’s birth ushered in the ultimate New Covenant! Josephus, a self-described Pharisee (and we know what Christ thought of them in the Eight Woes of Matthew 23) coined the derogatory term “Essenes” (=pious ones).

      Fact #12: This historical record — corroborated from eyewitness accounts in chronological order (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1%3A1-4&version=NASB) — was written to Mattathias ben Theophilus** (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattathias_ben_Theophilus), who served as the kohen gadol (=chief priest) in Jerusalem from 65-66 CE… just before the outbreak of the First Jewish-Roman War in 66 CE (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish–Roman_War).

      **Note: He was referenced as Theophilus in Luke 1:3 and Acts 1:1 just as Yosef ben Caiaphas was referenced as Caiaphas.

      The truth is out there if one seeks it. Shema Yisrael!

      2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. (NASB)

      Copyright (C) 1995-2018, L. Alan Schuetz

      • Mayhem

        What does this have to do with the Law enduring?

        You can publish here too you know :razz:

        • Alan Schuetz

          I am authoring a book entitled: “Our Messiah Few REALLY Know.”

          • Mayhem

            Good for you but do it on your own time.

      • Truthseeker

        laschuetz

        I have showed you from scripture before, Jesus Christ was born on the first Holy Day of the Feast of Tabernacle — 7th month 15th day and on the 22nd day was circumcised and that 8th day is also a commanded assembly i.e. the Last Great Day.

        Christ was baptized on Pentecost i.e. the Feast of the First fruits as Christ is the first of the first fruits and as the 120 on the Feast of Pentecost were the beginning harvest of God’s First Fruits they as well received the pouring out from heaven God’s Spirit.

        and as He turned 30 years of age on the 15th day of the 7th month, same year that He was baptized — He went into the temple and taught as a priest can not work in the temple until 30 years of age.

        I do not find most of what you have written above to be biblical correct.

        Christ has 7 years to confirm the covenant and was cut short at mid week at 3 1/2 years.

        Between the day He was slain 1/14 to the day of His birth is exactly 6 months; 1/14- 7/15, and that accounts exactly with His age being 33 1/2 years.

        He began His confirming the covenant on 7/15 and was slain 3 1/2 years later on 1/14.

  • Truthseeker

    Laschuetz

    I agree there is a “spirit in man” but that spirit is not a “soul”, is not eternal and returns back to God at our death.

    Zechariah 12: 1

    1 “The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth,
    and — formeth — The Spirit – “OF” – Man –“within him”.

    Ecclesiastes 1: 7

    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and – the spirit – shall return unto God — who gave it.

    I Corinthians 2: 11

    11 “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save — the Spirit of Man – which is–IN– him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, — but (by) the Spirit of God.

    Job 32: 8
    8 “But [there is] a Spirit (# 7307) “IN” man: and —- the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them (men) — understanding.

    Matthew 10

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (# 5590): but rather fear him which is able –to destroy –both “soul” (# 5590) and “body” in hell (# 1067).

    Numbers 16: 22

    22 “And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the “Spirits” of – all — flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

    Hebrews 12: 9

    9 “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father – OF – Spirit”s”, and live?”

    The spirit of a human, of a man God places in each of us at conception makes us higher then the other animals.

    And those cast into the Lake of Fire will be those that “knowingly” and “willfully” refuse to obey our Master.

    Do not mix belief up with obeying, many today “believe’ with their mouths that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our Savior but they refuse to Obey, they will not allow Jesus to rule over them.

    “Why call you ME LORD LORD and Do Not the things I say?”

    Just mouthing the words are nothing! Action is proof and action on belief is required.

    • Alan Schuetz

      No, the imperishable spirit DESCENDS to Sheol/Hades after death, and you certainly misquoted Ecclesiastes 1:7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%3A7&version=NASB).
      =======
      Believers’ Souls Do NOT Go To Heaven!

      One of the biggest hoaxes that modern churches have thrust upon us is concerning the disposition of the soul after death. Almost universally, Christians will vehemently state the souls of deceased believers immediately go to Heaven, but that is NOT what the Scriptures state. So, if not Heaven, then where (if anywhere)?

      Most Christians believe they belong to “New Testament churches;” therefore, they have no use for the Old Testament. But, what did Christ say on this subject? Examine Matthew 5:17-19: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A17-19&version=NASB. Is Christ a liar? Have all things been fulfilled? If you think so, then why is there a need for His Second Coming?

      In fact, this ALL revolves around His Second Coming and the appointed times (Heb. mo’edim) in the Fall — known by the Jewry as the Days of Awe. So, where do ALL souls go after death — both the righteous and the wicked? The Bible calls this specific place by three names:

      * Sheol (65x in the OT) – http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7585.htm;
      * Hades (10x in the NT; 4x in Revelation) – http://biblehub.com/greek/86.htm; and
      * Paradise (3x in the NT; this portion of Sheol/Hades is for believers only) – http://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm.

      To be perfectly clear, none of these is Hell (which is a misnomer; see http://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm) nor the false precept of Purgatory; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory.

      This is what the Bible states, and this is but a sampling of each:

      * Numbers 16:25-35 (concentrate on vv 30,33 as well as the footnotes): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+16%3A25-35&version=NASB
      * Job 7:7-10 (notice that it’s always DOWN to Sheol): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+7%3A7-10&version=NASB
      * Acts 2:22-36 (concentrate on vv 27,30-31,34-35): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2%3A22-36&version=NASB

      The passage in Acts 2 is important as even Christ’s soul descended into the netherworld of Sheol/Hades/Paradise. Recall that He was dead and buried for THREE DAYS AND NIGHTS (15-17 Abib) in accordance with the Jonah prophesy; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A38-41&version=NASB.

      Examine the Greek word translated as “Paradise” again: http://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm. It is a park, a garden, an enclosure! The souls of both the righteous and the wicked DESCEND to the netherworld — using whatever name desired: Sheol, Hades, or Paradise.

      * Ezekiel 31:15-17 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+31%3A15-17&version=NASB
      * Luke 23:39-43: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+23%3A39-43&version=NASB

      Can you handle the truth? Judgment Day — aka the great and terrible Day of the Lord — will occur on a future Yom Kippur (=Day of Atonement). The flip-side of atonement is… judgment!

      * Revelation 20:12-15: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20%3A12-15&version=NASB

      Those who are TRUE believers in Christ (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3%3A16-21&version=NASB) will be given Grace, which is a judicial pardon on Judgment Day at His Second Coming! His First Coming was as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 who brought salvation to the world. His Second is as the conquering priestly king of the order of Melchizedek (Heb. Malki-tsedeq; =my king is righteous[ness]) vanquishing all evil and establishing His Kingdom — where believers will ultimately reside — on the New Earth.

      Those who do not believe in Him will be judged by the Law of Moses, found guilty, and will be thrown into the lake of fire known as Gehenna; examine http://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm again.

      Only three people, who were born incarnate on Earth, are currently in Heaven: 1) Christ, who was resurrected, transfigured, and ascended to the right hand of the Father; 2) Enoch; and 3) Elijah. The latter two are the witnesses (or the metaphorical lampstands [representing the Light of the Word] and olive trees [representing the anointing of the Word]) of Revelation. As ALL humans MUST die (i.e., the first death), the two witnesses will as well in Jerusalem; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+11%3A3-13&version=NASB.

      Note: Jerusalem is mystically called Sodom and Egypt in this passage; it is also called Mystery Babylon as rabbinic Jews follow the Babylonian calendar in which the fourth month is named after the Babylonian deity Tammuz, put more faith in the Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) than they do in the TaNaKh (OT), and recite Adonai for the Tetragrammaton which invokes the Greek Adonis and Babylonian Tammuz. That’s why it’s necessary for an undefiled New Jerusalem to descend from the New Heaven to the New Earth. Also, the two witnesses are taken back up into Heaven after they are resurrected. Their bodies/temples were specially prepared (or at least Enoch’s was documented as being so); in the Book of Enoch, what appeared to be a hot coal was pressed to his lips to purify him. Focus on v5 if anyone desires to harm them before their time of prophesying is completed; see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+11%3A5&version=NASB. These are no longer regular human beings as we know them.

      After the wicked are thrown into Gehenna in perpetuity, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb between Christ and the New Jerusalem will commence on Sukkot (=Feast of Tabernacles); see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21%3A9-14&version=NASB.

      To recap, this is the order of the resurrection that will occur just before Judgment Day: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15%3A20-58&version=NASB.

      So, there you have it, folks… The souls of the deceased — even the righteous/elect — are certainly NOT in Heaven. Not Adam, who was a literal son of God (see Luke 3:38); not Abraham; not Moses; not David; not Mary — NO ONE save Christ at this time.

      Shema Yisrael!

      #QuestionEverything

      Copyright (C) 1995-2018, L. Alan Schuetz
      =======
      truthseeker, you are guilty of preaching another gospel…

      • Truthseeker

        laschuetz

        I back up everything with many clear scriptures and I am preaching another gospel?

        The Gospel i.e. the “Good News’ Jesus Christ came to announce is the coming of the Government of God to earth to bring peace and joy using the Rod of Iron to in force peace.

        I write about that Righteous Government and the Law by which Jesus Christ will rule the entire earth.

        Facts I believe:

        No one is going to the 3rd heaven, ever.

        No one will be tormented for all eternity.

        All, every single human concieved in the womb will have their one opportunity for eternal life.

        Humans do not have an immortal soul — they are living breathing creatures, that upon death return to dust.

        the Torah was never and will never be abolished, it is the mind and Holy Divine nature of God the Father

        the 7 Holy Feasts of God are the 7 major events in God’s plan of Salvation, beginning with Passover which is NOT a Holy Day.

        The 7 Commanded Assemblies are to be observed today, the 7 Holy Feasts of God must be kept and not easter nor xmas or sunday.

        Our carnal human nature must be circumcised away “without hands” and in its place God’s Holy Righteous Perfect Divine nature must be built.

        All must be “converted” or they will never be allowed in God the Father’s Family.

        The Saints of God will rule as kings and lords on the throne with Jesus Christ here on earth for 1000 years.

        If the above is another “gospel” then i am guilty as charged and will gladly accept the punishment of men as did my Savior and High Priest.

        • Alan Schuetz

          I’ve proven that your “facts” are wrong using the Word. You are just like the multitude of denominations — each twisting the Scriptures to “tickle the ears.” Again, you are preaching a different gospel… take it elsewhere.

          2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. (NASB)

      • Truthseeker

        laschuetz

        Thank you for pointing out my error, some how the “2″ in Ecc. “12″: 7 did not make it.

        And if humans have immortal souls then why is there 3 resurrections,

        and why does the Word state we are made of the dust of the ground?

        And why does God in Ecc. 12: 7 state the “spirit’ returns to HIM?

        And If Jesus Christ did not die and cease to exist then our penalty of death has not been paid in full.

        Shall i go further?

        • Alan Schuetz

          Ecclesiastes 12:7 is speaking of Yahoah (Tetragrammaton)/Yehoshu’a (=Yahoah saves), and Yehoshu’a certainly returned to the Heavenly realm; He is currently at the right hand of the Father. Once again, you took one verse out of context.

          In context: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+12%3A1-8&version=NASB

          • Truthseeker

            Laschuetz

            you like the vast majority read into scripture what you want them to say, — demonstrate this is speaking of Jesus Christ.

            Genesis states Adam was made from dust:

            19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], ——and unto dust shalt thou return.

            and just like verse 7 states all men will return to dust as well and the “spirit” God places in each at conception returns to God who gave it in the first place.

            How do you suppose animals know how to function? Because God placed in each animal kind their own “spirit’ which gives them the instinct to function. A horse is given the ‘spirit of a horse’ which gives horses the instinct necessary to procreate etc.

            All living creatures have their own spirit that imparts the necessary abilities to survive and grow in numbers.

            the spirit that God places in man elevates man above the animals as man has no preeminence above a beast they are physiologically equal.

            Eccl. 3;

            18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest (to) them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. (#929 cattle, beast)

            19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; — so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.

            The word translated “breath” is #7307 and is the same word for Spirit and in this usage means breath or breathing air to live.

            Physiologically man is not greater then the beasts of the fields so states God Almighty.

            20 “All” — go unto one place; — all — are of the dust, and — all turn to dust again.

            21 Who knoweth the “Spirit of Man” that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

            Ecc, 12: 7

            1 Remember now thy Creator (Thy Creator is Jesus Christ) in the days of thy( ours not His youth) youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

            2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

            3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

            4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;

            5 Also [when] they shall be afraid of [that which is] high, and fears [shall be] in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

            6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed {08675;07368:08735}, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

            7 Then — shall the dust return to the earth — as it was: — and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

            8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all [is] vanity.

            Are you aware what God is doing with Man?

            1 Peter 1

            23 Being born again #313 (impregnated) , not of corruptible “seed” #4701 (sperm), but of incorruptible (seed/sperm), by the word (command) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

            When the Father places His Spirit which is HIS spirit sperm in us we are impregnated with His spirit seed and then we await our birth to immortal spirit with the same spirit body as our elder brother Jesus Christ.

            God the Father is birthing Sons in His image and Jesus Christ is the first born of many brethren.

            What is God’s image?? GOD!

          • Alan Schuetz

            Here is the mystery as I already quoted: WE WILL BE GIVEN NEW, IMPERISHABLE BODIES! Our flesh will be worm food and return to dust while our spirit/soul awaits for the resurrection in Sheol (the equivalent in Greek is Hades).

            As I also said: “One of the biggest hoaxes that modern churches have thrust upon us is concerning the disposition of the soul after death. Almost universally, Christians will vehemently state the souls of deceased believers immediately go to Heaven, but that is NOT what the Scriptures state.” Then, I proved it WITH THE WORD OF GOD!

        • Alan Schuetz

          Question: As the New Jerusalem is the bride and (future) wife of the Lamb (Revelation 21:9-14), and she descends to the New Earth from the New Heaven, how can we possibly be with the Father in Heaven when we will be “tabernacling” with Christ on the New Earth?

          In context: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=NASB

  • Truthseeker

    Laschuetz

    I read Rev 21: 9 but I see nothing that States the Bride is a temple, Christ is to marry a building even a spirit building?

    Do you not understand Christ married the children of Israel, the first covenant was a marriage contract and when Christ returns He will marry again both the house of Israel and the House of Judah after they are united for ever.

    No Christ does not marry a building.

    But I totally agree none will go to heaven – none ever. I have never ever made that statement.

    Next I do not find an immortal soul taught in the old or new testament.

    The Soul that sins dies. That ain’t immortal.

    And what Phil 3: 21 states is not that it is just an imperishable body but that it is the same spirit body our Savior has now.

    And laschuetz, what body is Jesus Christ in right now – He is God and His body is the same as His Father’s, so what body will those in that first resurrection come with? The same body as Jesus Christ i.e. God.

    God the Father is reproducing Himself after His KIND, the GOD KIND.

    The law of God is kind produces only the same kind – thus God can not produce something other then HIS OWN KIND.
    That is LAW.

    • Truthseeker

      Laschuetz

      So I am not misunderstood, when Christ returns He marries the Resurrected Houses of Israel and Judah,
      Salvation is only for the House of Israel, gentiles must be adopted into Israel to be saved

      the New Covenant is only with the House of Israel and the House of Judah – no other nations are involved. Jere.. 31: 33.

      Christ divorced the House of Israel but was still married to the House of Judah until His death on the stake.

      Again Christ does not marry a building, the Book of Ruth and Hosea show how according to Torah law Christ can be legally married again to Israel.

      • Alan Schuetz

        You can take that up with God… the Word says what it says, and who are you — you worm — to question Him? But, don’t worry about it, only TRUE BELIEVERS — not false teachers — will be invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

        Matthew 25:11 Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. (NASB)

        Verse 12 bears repeating:

        Matthew 25:12 But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ (NASB)

        Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (NASB)

      • Alan Schuetz

        You can believe what you want… I can’t save you — only Yehoshu’a (Joshua) can. I am now dusting the proverbial dust off my feet in the vein of Matthew 10:14. Yes, that verse applied to the apostles; that’s why I used “proverbial.” I will pray that you find the Light… Good day!

        • Truthseeker

          laschuetz

          “is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it”

          laschuetz the way I am on is very very narrow and as I stated I am in the 1/2 of 1 percent.
          the 40,000 flavors of so called christianity is that broad way.

          please do not pray to your god for me. I want nothing of or from him.

  • Truthseeker

    Why is it no one has addressed the point of this paper?

    Did the Apostle Paul lock it down so it can not be twisted?

    that appears to be the case.

    • Mayhem

      “that appears to be the case”

      You know it, Truthseeker, and they know it except… pride.

  • jknbt

    if you want to try to serve God by the law, you are welcome to try. You are not going to make it.

    Galatians 5:4 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    see Gal chapts. 3-5 for details.

    ’nuff said…

    • Mayhem

      Except you’re the only one claiming justification under the law.

    • Truthseeker

      jknbt for once try very hard to understand what our Savior is teaching here in Luke 17.

      Luke 17

      7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

      8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

      9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

      There is NO REWARD for obey our Master — it is our duty!

      10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things —– which are commanded you, — say,—–
      We are unprofitable servants: —– we have done that which was our duty to do.

      jnkbt can you not grasp the message — it is the duty of the servant to obey his master and as Christ has stated as fact HE is our Master and He has repeatedly stated if we are loyal to Him we will keep HIS Commandments.

      None can ever be justified by obeying –NEVER NEVER, please do not tell me ever again I am trying to gain justification by my obedience to my Master;. MY master paid for me with His life and HE owns me, I must do what He commands.

      Eternal life is a free unearned gift – period.

      we are rewarded for our works and keeping the Law are not works.

      You and most think you must just mouth words and you are saved —- think again — that is not at all what the pioneer of our salvation teaches. The Few, Not everyone that says to me LORD LORD! are given eternal life— Words are worthless only your actions proves your faith.

      How is it you can not understand this plain simple fact?

      • Damien

        Troothytits

        So Paul obeyed a law of the land? That’s your pathetic argument? Did he believe that the OT laws were necessary for salvation? No. NO ONE thinks that. You are a huckster idolator attempting to remove Christ.

        “Jesus as God OUT, Jews as Gods IN.” :evil:

        • Damien

          IF the laws were NECESSARY for salvation then Abraham (ACCORDING TO YOU – not getting into Elijah ans Moses) wouldn’t have been IN HELL ya RETARD!

          • Truthseeker

            demon you speak of Abraham??

            5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

            And mr or mrs demon what ever the case maybe— the Hebrew word used here as law is the Hebrew word TORAH.

            Again I rest my case.

        • Truthseeker

          demien

          Your statement:

          “”NO ONE thinks that. You are a huckster idolator attempting to remove Christ.”"

          How about Jesus Christ stating it is necessary?

          16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, ——–that I may have eternal life?

          17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,——————————– keep the commandments.

          18 He saith unto him, — Which? — Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

          19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

          I rest my case !

          • Damien

            TroothyTITS

            LIFE!

            Enter into LIFE!

            NOT ETERNAL LIFE

            I KEEP correcting your dishonest quoting of this passage!!!! :mad:

            Jesus THEN goes on to say:

            20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

            21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

            22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

            23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

            YOU ARE A DISHONEST HUCKSTER!

          • Truthseeker

            damien,

            you can not read either.

            the question was “what good thing shall I do, ——–that I may have eternal life?”

            The rich guy was alive already wasn’t he, he had money now he wants to live with the money forever— and asked how that can be accomplished.

            the problem he had was his money caused him to transgress the first 3 Commandments.

            what part of the Arab world do you call home and how long have you been a Muslim?

            I have heard it is good for muslims to lie to non-muslims, is that right?

          • Damien

            TroofyTits

            This passage EXPLICITLY states that people who ONLY obey the Torah WILL NOT get eternal life! They won’t be killed iOBVIOUSLY.

            BUT THEY WILL NOT BE SAVED!

          • Truthseeker

            demon LOL is it just attention you are looking for?

          • Damien

            TrussyTits

            My Scottish self-effacement.is UNQUESTIONED on this site you creepy little perv!

            You are claiming that this guy was not saved because Jesus (LOVE) was ECONOMICAL with the Truth!!!! This IS derangement! :roll:

  • Truthseeker

    jknbt — laschuetz or anyone

    please take the time to explain to all of us why Acts 21 is not saying Paul and the other Apostles are obeying the Law, the Torah

    Acts 21: 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; — but [that] thou thyself “also” walkest orderly, —- and keepest the law.

    “You — also” – you, Paul, as well as — “us”– here in Jerusalem – we all do walk orderly and Keep the Torah!

    The 12 apostles here confirm they walk i.e. live in the orderly manner set forth by the Torah. They obey God’s Holy Law.

    The Apostles wanted to prove what was being said about Paul — that he taught the Law was abolished and no longer needed to be obeyed — was nothing but a lie.

    What Paul took part in and what the other Apostles suggested Paul participate in can be found in the Torah instructions concerning vows:

    Some Torah instructions concerning vows are found in Number 6: 2; 15: 8; 21: 2; 30: 2, 3 and Leviticus 27: 2

    Romans 7: 25 “So then with the mind — “I myself” – serve the law of God;”

    Paul is stating as “fact” in verse 25– ‘I myself serve the LAW of God”:

    Paul taught, kept, lived by and obeyed the Holy Torah of God and so do I !

    • Truthseeker

      As always none will address the question caused by Acts 21: 24 — and why because they can not!

      But they will make accusations and quote scripture that have no connection —

      Most actually are angry at the Word of God because it shows they are yet unforgiven sinners.

      • Truthseeker

        if the questions at hand are not something you are willing answer yourself — go find some “professional’ highly paid minister or preacher what ever – maybe they will help you tackle these “difficult” questions — Some how I doubt it.

        but Surely a professional can jump in and show all of us how wrong I am for believing Paul and Jesus Christ both taught and live by the Holy righteous Law of God and taught those the follow Christ must do so as well.

        Honest questions will be answered respectfully.

    • jknbt

      here’s another handful of pearls, don’t break a tooth:

      Paul continued as a cultural jew all his life. Galatians & Acts 15 is plain enough…No Law of Moses yoke for gentile converts…period…that much said, a different set of rules for the jews, since the jewish religion is the only God given, God invented religion…a jew can continue their observance of judaism even after they convert for family & cultural reasons…a messianic jew can go to his father’s house for passover, for example, without going under the Law. Jews don’t have to give up a single good thing about their jewish faith when they convert to Christianity. However, it would be a sin for a gentile Christian to start practicing all the Laws in the torah concerning the passover feast or any moedim feasts if they are doing this to earn their salvation by Law.

      a convert from any other religion like hinduism, islam, or any other pagan religion is supposed to give up all practices of those religions when they convert. you really can’t have it both ways. This is not true for Jews who are permitted to continue for cultural and family reasons the old ways.

      • Truthseeker

        jknbt

        if you had bothered to read the paper before this one it proved the Torah has existed since before Adam thus it is NOT A JEWISH RELIGION and God’s Way is not a religion as all religion is pagan.

        this paper proves Paul taught the Torah to the gentiles in Rome.

        What you have been confirming you and all that follow your religion are an unforgiven sinners,

        Do you not understand what the term “repentance” means?

        If there is no Law you have nothing to repent of do you? And in Acts 2 that is what the Apostles told the folks they must do.

        jknbt

        can you explain how the Jews can be at war against the House of Israel?

        Can you explain why Jesus Christ sent His Apostles to the lost sheep of the House of Israel?

        Can you explain why Ephraim is God’s First born?

        Can you explain why Jeremiah and Paul stated the New Covenant is with the House of Israel AND with the House of Judah?

        what you have been taught is so full of holes and elephant can walk through.

  • Cinders777

    Once again, you are mixing dispensations and causing mass confusion for yourself and others. Jesus came to his own as the suffering servant and the Jews denied him – they wanted the King. But Jesus had to die FIRST to cleanse them from sin. When they rejected him, the millennial reign was moved out 2000 years while Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles for salvation. But God changed the plan – from works (following commandments and animal sacrifice) to mercy. The Gentiles were NEVER under the law! Only the Jews. (If Gentiles wanted to be saved, they had to convert under Old Testament dispensation.)

    The 10 commandments were a tool to show the world that man is evil and sinful and in need of a savior. Paul refers to the commandments as “the ministration of death written in tablets of stone.” They CONVICT us of sin but following the law in this dispensation without faith brings judgment upon us – we will be judged by the law and not shown mercy through God’s grace. Why anyone would want to be judged by a law they can’t EVER keep is beyond my comprehension! I’ll take God’s mercy and grace any time of the day, week, or year and be eternally grateful for it.

    I ask, Truthseeker, were you 100% sinless as a baby or child? I’m sure you didn’t follow the 10 commandments PERFECTLY as a child so you’ve already broken the law and are condemned to death because of your failure.

    You are taking God’s word, putting it in a blender, and then trying to make sense out of the mess you made resulting in a complete misinterpretation of scripture.

    I feel sorry for you. At this point, I doubt you will ever find the real truth of what it means to be saved by faith alone. :cry:

    • Truthseeker

      Cinders I have quoted a dozens and dozens of scriptures showing what you are espousing is 100% false.

      Cinders take those same scriptures used in this study and prove they do not state what they are stating.

      Here is one:

      Acts 21: 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; — but [that] thou thyself “also” walkest orderly, —- and keepest the law.

      this one states long after the death of Jesus Christ the 12 Apostles and Paul all lived orderly and kept the Torah.

      How about this one: Romans 7: 25 “So then with the mind — “I myself” – serve the law of God;”

      God Has never and will never change how He works – His plan was set before creation began and will never be altered.

    • Truthseeker

      cinders how do you twist Revelation 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

      The Saints of God at the time of the end are keeping the Commandments of GOD, all but you of course.

      also

      Rev 22: 14 Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

      verse 15 show those that do not DO the Commandments are dogs, they are murderers and liars and idolaters all listed in the 10 commandment.

      cinders you will be judged by the Commandments, they are the two witnesses testifying that you are a sinner and the Torah is the 3rd witness.

      Please do not feel sorry for me as My blessings are so high I can not see the top of them– why because I do the will of my Father exactly as does my High Priest Jesus Christ.

      • Truthseeker

        the doctrine of dispensations is a tool used by Satan to deceive folks into believing God can change.

        “I Change NOT!” “What Has been will BE”

        If Almighty God can change then explain how you are certain of your salvation, if the rules changed once can they not be changed over and over?

        One day you are saved and the next day the rules change and you are not? I pass on that stupid false doctrine.

        • jknbt

          dispensationalism is a very helpful tool for understanding the big picture of God’s redemptive plan from genesis to revelation…it is as welcome as any detailed thematic outline of a long novel, which has the net effect of making it more readable and understandable….

          the plan of salvation, “by grace through faith you are saved” has never changed….God had to demonstrate that salvation by any other means doesn’t work..that is why the economy or dispensational way God dealt with man changed…The situation between God & Man in the garden is very different from the situation under the Law…He was trying to prove the need for salvation by grace…here, quick study, fill in the blanks as below if you want to learn something:

          for example, Salvation by _______________ did not work because ________________

          human innocence………man fell the first time he was tempted

          conscience………..everybody did in their heart what seemed right & anarchy ensued

          human government……..rampaging corruptions of big government and big religion took people away from God rather than taking people to God

          being part of the patriarch Abraham’s family………Israel went down to Egypt & worshiped the Gods of egypt plus the God of Abraham, compromise

          Law of Moses………….it is impossible to fully observe all the law all the time & any failure brings a hellfire curse, not salvation…Paul said going under the Law is the same as going under a curse

          the dispensations after the cross (church age, tribulation, millennium, final judgment, eternity) are all the story about how God works out the salvation of his elect church and keeps them safe…dispensationalism is just a helpful outline that makes it all more readable & understandable, many so-called “contradictions” that the critics cite go away when put under a dispensational grid & magnifying glass…why people hate it so much, I can’t understand…it is a friend of any diligent student of the Word.

          • Truthseeker

            jknbt

            Show us where salvation was ever offered by the first contract.

            Please give us book chapter and verse — You can not because it was never offered by the first contract or even in the garden.

            Salvation by obeying the Law never existed – ever.

            What you are saying is God kind of tried this and that to see if they would work and then if they did not — He would try something else.

            That is absolute garbage. That is portraying God as a weak human.

            My God declares the end before the beginning — He makes all things occur at the exact second on the exact day in the exact year.

            Before creation was began — Christ knew He would become our Passover on the 14th day of the first month at 3 PM at mid week and would be in the grave moments before sundown and be resurrected on the 3rd day moments before the Sabbath ended. Yes He rose from death on the very day He is LORD of.

            All the first fruits God is calling now were predestined to be called before creation began.

            God Does not guess, God Does not make mistakes and there are no contradictions in His Word, just folks trying to understand with their carnal unconverted minds.

            jknbt you do not have a clue who you are worshiping

          • jknbt

            so wrong, truthy…why do you miss my plain point that these ways did not work salvation, God knew that, but he had a point to prove to man…the weakness was not with God, but the presumptiveness of man that he could ever stand before God in his own might…God used the changes of his ways in the different dispensations to prove his point…

            both you & mayhem don’t understand basic language, so it is very frustrating to try to talk to you…there are three broad classifications of verbs: 1) verbs of being, who you are, who you say you are; 2) verbs of action or doing, what you do, your works, your acts; & 3) verbs of possession, what you have, what you own….

            I have never said that God changed his being, who he is, his basic holiness & nature…ever. I did say that sometimes God will deal differently with his actions or works in order to prove a point. You just won’t hear what I am saying…God doesn’t change. The plan of salvation never changed. He did modify how he dealt with man so he might finally get through to man with his thick skulled refusal to understand…that is the changing economies of the dispensations that proved the need for the cross. The Law never saved anybody. All it did was to prove need for something better. I keep saying this, but you two will not listen, so you fall back on your standard refutation of something I never said. Why do I bother, waste of time & pearls debating with the unconvincable who never hear what I am saying, only the voice in the back of their heads..

        • jknbt

          and p.s….my favorite scripture about how God does not change is:

          Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

          • Mayhem

            You can’t have it both ways, jknbt, either God does change…

            “the economy or dispensational way God dealt with man changed”

            … or He doesn’t (Heb 13:8) so which is it?

          • jknbt

            nope, ya missed it, he can change his ways to make a point…He personally doesn’t change, his plan of salvation never has changed…

            here is an example of a dispensational change:

            when Jesus healed the lepers, he commanded them to show themselves to the priest. Why? Showing off? Needing a testimony? No, it was because the Law commanded those cleansed of leprosy must show themselves to a priest. Jesus, teacher of the Law, did what was commanded by the Law. This was under the Law dispensation.

            Under the Grace-Church Age dispensation, nobody is ever commanded to show themselves to the priest for approval after they have been healed.

            Has God changed? No. Has the economy or dispensation changed? Yes.

          • Mayhem

            The Levitical order was instituted to focus attention on things to come (Heb 8:4-5) and yet the priests were unable to absolve sin (Heb 7:11) so their authority fell to the high priest of the order of Melchizedek (Jesus) and now the leper, who must still present, genuflects before the Son.

            This is not an example of God changing as it was part of the stated plan (Eze 44) probably since the time everything was spoken into existence and while it is technically a dispensation of order there is no favour involved like the pre-trib rapture tenet or the abolishing of the Mosaic/Levitical law.

            From the first Adam to the last and continuing through His return salvation by grace and an enduring law for the ages.

          • jknbt

            mayhem & truthy…once again, God & his plan of salvation have never changed. The scriptures plainly say in Galatians that to go under the law or any part of the law is to put yourself under a curse. Why would you do this?…In the Grace age and the rest of time, Christians are obliged to obey the even higher standard of the commandments of Christ…the motivation is not fear of the curse of the Law, but Love. “If you love me, do my commandments”….there are over 1000 commandments if you list them out all separately…the standard set in Jesus’ discourse in Matt 5 sets the bar higher than Everest, far, far higher than the moral standard of the Law. There is no curse doing the Lord’s commandments…this is how you overcome & become an overcomer, by obedience to his lordship & doing his commandments…

          • Truthseeker

            jknbt

            If what you just wrote is not confusion, what IS?

            If you keep the Law you come under some curse?

            And there is no curse for doing the Lord’s Commandments?

            And you think I would “repent” and follow your confusion — there is as much chance of that occurring as for the earth to stop turning.

            Sound mind? not so much.

          • Mayhem

            How about you start debating with integrity, jknbt, because the sermon on the mount runs from Matthew 5 through Matthew 7 and the reason this is important is what came next.

            Having just explained, according to you, how we are no longer under the law, because grace, Jesus healed a leper and subjected him to whose law? Come on now it’s not hard, it starts with “M”, whose law?

            Leviticus 14:2.

    • Mayhem

      Cinders777 said…

      “When they rejected him, the millennial reign was moved out 2000 years while Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles for salvation. But God changed the plan”

      … which raises a contradiction wherein God does not change (Num 23:19) and nor does Jesus (Heb 13:8).

      Cue the sound of crickets :roll:

      • Truthseeker

        mayhem

        Cinders god does not have a good sound plan and it must change so it does not crash and burn.

        Like building a house with out a plan.

  • Pink Slime

    Yes, people in the know already know about this. But the people you are trying to convince do NOT know. No, they are DECEIVED. And the deceived do NOT know they are being deceived.

    Let them go….. :twisted:

    It’s not their time to know. :wink:

    • Mayhem

      How then is iron to be sharpened?

      • Pink Slime

        Are you the stoned or the iron? :lol:

        • Mayhem

          Muh book doesn’t say to get stoned when sharpening iron with iron.

          Maybe that’s what i’m doing wrong :lol:

    • Truthseeker

      pink slime are you addressing cinders or truthseeker with this comment/

  • Truthseeker

    Statement to all:

    Over the last few years I have come to understand just how complete Satan’s deception has become.

    The following words of warning from Jesus Christ I have been aware of for 50 years.

    1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

    2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever —- killeth you —- will think that he doeth God service.

    3 And these things —-will they do unto you, — because they have not known the Father, nor me.

    It has only been in the last few years that I have come to understand the deception has become so complete — this is now possible.

    And it will be the so called “Christians” doing the murder.

    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive “many”.

    The “Many”, the tens of thousands kinds of Christianity, coming in the Name and using the authority of Jesus Christ to preach “Jesus Christ Is the Savior” will kill the Saints of God thinking they are doing God a service as they never knew the Father or the Son.

    This time spoken of by the soon coming KING of kings and LORD of lords is upon us.

  • Truthseeker

    I am working on a new paper to be put on BIN soon and have posted the introduction below to see if there is an interest.

    “Who are we to worship, the Son or the Father? This is a very important doctrinal question. Are you sure you know the truth?”

    Who are we to follow?
    Who are we to come before in prayer?
    Who answers our prayers?
    Who is in charge of our salvation?
    Who makes the decisions from above regarding our lives?
    Who corrects us when we stumble off that “narrow difficult path”?
    Who is ultimately in charge ?

    Most ministers and preachers today preach “Jesus Christ of Nazareth” and generally ignore His Father.

    Most also believe Christ had to come to rectify the great number of problems the Father caused.

    “That ‘burdensome’ ‘curse’ of a Law the Father laid on the Children of Israel which states we can not have crosses (idols) hanging around our necks, or we can not, from time to time when necessary tell Lies – or if we just can stop our selves and must commit adultery and who really needs to “rest” on that 7th Day – The Sabbath is just a Jewish thing as is the law.”

    The Christian mantra: —We are now “Under” grace all we must do is let “Jesus” come into our hearts and just believe.

    Boiled down – the two statements above are the basic premise of modern Christianity.

    Some, those unable or unwilling to think logically and deeply, believe many mistakes have made thus The Father or maybe even Jesus Christ as well is forced to change course when something does not work as planned.

    I am not at all sure which main stream Christianity teaches is actually in charge; the Father or the Son? Do you know?

    The abominably lie God must keep changing how He carries out His work is labeled – “dispensations” i.e. “ if this way does not work lets try another”!

    The following are supposed “dispensations’ as explained to me by others.

    • Adam and Eve were made and that did not work out as planned.
    • God gave Moses the Law and that ended as a disaster.
    • Christ came to earth bringing this new doctrine of “grace” and that, I would guess, is still in play and we must wait to see it this new attempt will work.

    The above are some of the theoretical periods of “dispensation” which supposedly are the different failed attempts by God to carry out some kind of plan whereby God is allegedly trying His best to give to “immoral souls” – “eternal life” in heaven for some unknown reason — and – all of God’s attempts to day have failed but the jury is still out on the doctrine of Grace i.e the “get out of jail for free” card.

    And to some the above makes perfect sense.

    If the above were true, and I Thank my Heavenly Father and His Son — it is NOT, I would chose the Lake of Fire. I will not serve any this foolish and weak. I serve Almighty God, the LAW Giver, all power in heaven and on earth are HIS, He does not make mistakes, He never fails.

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